I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist

[Keith Sherwood]

In the sight of God through Christ we are seen in the prefections of Christ

But all believers, being in the good of all the benefits of salvation, are not in possestion of the purchased possesion in its fulness

The apostle Peter as explained by Paul made a mistake when certain from James came, Diotrophese was in grave error in wanting pre emminence
Demas stopped serving Paul because he loved the world
Hebrews tells us not to despise the chastening of the Lord - for those he loves he chastises
Corithians are told not to continue in adultery and fornication
Jew and Gentile believers to get on together
Euodia and and Syntyche to also start working together
Indeed virtualy all epistles are written to provide corrections to misconceptions, doctrine and error - moraly, in the mind and in action

Where maturity or perfection is used - example 1 Thess 3 it can be used several ways and context explains. Perfection often means maturity - not a sinless state

A knowledge of scripture shows that what you are saying Stephen does not add up -and if it did, then we are all in your boat anyhow .

But then the scriptural claim for itsef that, amogst other things, all of it is for correction and reproof would make no sense - and scripture makes perfect sense


Keith

[Stephen Rodgers]

Largely I agree with what you say Keith. "My yoke is easy and my burden light" Math.11:30. Salvation is universal for "God is Saviour of all mankind" 1 Tim.4:10. Salvation is a free gift, for the asking. It confers no obligation apart from acceptance and confession and then try to live a decent life. Nothing could be easier or more self evident in the Christian arena.

Yet there is something you feel is still missing is there not? It does not counter the effects of the fall, of Adam's sin eating from the Tree of knowledge, for the woman converted still travails inpain and suffering does she not? The man still sweats to provide food on the table, if one is a labourer.

Christians universally all anticipate that the anticipated Second Coming of Christ[despite it not being in a Bible concordance] and the Last Judgement will resolve all of this. Until then our personal salvation is still largely unfulfilled as Paul exclaims: "We are saved by hope........if we hope for that we see not yet,then do we with patience wait" Rom.8:24-25

Now that is the broad scheme of things, but for those who have wisdom there is even more, much more I would suggest.It is a question of what you do with your talents, as told By Christ in His parable.The real question is are you satisfied with a basic wage, when you can have much more? There are reliable guide posts in the Scriptures, very valuable clues into the Mystery of God, that whilst yet in the field of this world one can obtain the Pearl of Great Price if one sells all that one has. Are you that sort of merchant Keith? Are you a risk taker, for Christ? I trust you do not mind such personal questions, for it applies to all of us, especially one self, there is certainly no obligation to reply.

[Keith Sherwood]

It is appealing to the flesh to think that there are different levels of Christianity

And that it is possible to be a superior Christian - such is of the flesh, and not of God

We are all unprofitable servants, but servants, and I cannot judge another in that sense.

To quote Corinthians it is the fire that tests - a lynch pin is only found out to be true by strain.

Every Artic lorry no matter how large and heavy has one pin and clamp only, upon which its safety depends and that pin has to be proved. You do not think any such lorry is remarkable – but that pin is, but you cannot see it, nor do you think about it as it swings round a bend in front of your bonnet.

The Christian life is to love God, Love you brethren, do good to all men, obey the laws of the land and to give an account for their faith

Some have great boldness in faith and that is commendable, but no more than the quite Christian life’s of those they serve

I suggest you read Fox's book of martyrs, many were unremarkable people who simply were found to be true to Christ when tested

Genuineness is a modest and unremarkable characteristic that stands the test
Life is full of Rei's - he was unremarkable but he stood as an equal with the greatest of his day

Let us not be full of pomposity

Yours in Christ

Keith

[Stephen Rodgers]

I am sorry I have failed to convey the nature of one's posts properly here, they are not about pomposity, if so I have not obviously communicated one's words to you. On the contrary, it is about humility putting off of the old man so we can put on Christ.Pomposity is a beast that runs away with a man, that is totally out of control. Yet in man's blindness he praises himself for being able to stay in the saddle. And in his folly he rejoices he can cause it to run faster.

There is only one's blindness. To know that one does not know, there surely a silent stillness begins peace and love. For the consciousness of one's own ignorance is the beginning of wisdom. Understanding is Love, from the riches of inner peace, sharing itself with out need of replenishment......a new creation in Christ.

It would seem an amazing thing to suggest that all christians are already in the enjoyment of their inheritance.Let me suggest there is a certain melancholy of contradiction in their dreams or hopes, punctuated by a God of wrath, vengeance and hell fire.For there to be a heaven there must also be a hell littered perhaps with those they were once close to, even their own kind burning forever in pain indescribable!

Such conformity to standard fundamentalist beliefs could well become an iron yoke in their land, equality just bland sameness, tethered to such a peg or pin of belief they could go round and round grazing until nothing is left, finally reach that point where one cannot move....for it can stand the strain of religious pompous self righteous thought. But just one thought of Christ being his very life would snap that pin.For Christ "would draw all men to Himself." Not even the red hot iron chains of hell could hold them back.

How does a fundamentalist convince an atheist of his loving God? Would you marry a woman if she had the power to put you in hell, heck that would be taking a huge risk! Now if you looked at another woman, even for a moment
In the Bible one sees a two edged sword, that one cannot smite the atheist or hell bound until one has first smote one's self.

Methinks the many of Christendom are still in the wilderness of this world of sin consciosuness,their Christ is in the promised Land but they are still wandering around on the Egyptian sin conciousness side of the Jordan.Hence the breakdown of Christendom.They are still wandering around in circles still pinned down to that almost unbreakable pin of Romanism. For Rome is the very pin of fundamentalism: 'of infallible doctrine'. Is that not the real truth? Where Love is not , there arises issues of duty and law. And where love is not, God is unknown, and their religion a lie, their truth but a corpse of dead words, embalmed in religions most holy names.


The moment we think of sin, we start projecting it out there usually onto others and only onto one's self in our times of depression and guilt trips. Let me suggest then how Paul describes this state of a christian as: "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I thought as a child, but when I became a man I put away childish things" 1 Cor.13:11

Christ said "many are called but few are chosen" and as Paul said "There are many families in heaven........for one star differeth from another in glory, so is the resurrection of the dead." How can this be if all are the same?

It is appealing to the flesh to think that there are different levels of Christianity

as you mentioned Keith, but does that not also mean the flesh wants the easy way out,let us all become the same: a sort of bland communism of unworthy servants.Even so I appreciate the point you were making........pomposity stinks! We be servants, but let us not think we are worthy ones! But beware it comes under many disguises, even the humble seeking to use their humility to rule over others.

The point is that within the body of Christ, there are many members as Paul suggested, some more esteemed than others, yet without the lowest member the body cannot function or be whole. Have we forgotten what the Master said:"But many that are first shall be last, and the last shall be first." Let us not forget the rich young man, who could not sell his possessions how much harder then for us old rich folk.

Let us not get too pompous about our sins either, for what sin, offense or harm could we do to an Eternal Transcendent God. Ethical injunctions mean everything within this human mortal context on earth, but God who is too holy to behold evil how could he be reduced in glory or emotionally upset by what an earthly man does in this vale of dream making? If sin be real, how could God dispose of reality? It would be like God trying to dispose of Himself.Let me suggest the illusory nature of our existence, that Scripture decrees" "that all flesh is as grass....this world is passing." Is man so full of Himself that he thinks his sins can assail the very throne of God above? That is madness, let me quote from Tolstoy.......

To understand Christ's teaching is but ' to understand that the world, not that which God gave for man's delight, but the world men have devised for their own destruction is a dream. A very wild and terrible dream- the raving of a maniac from which one need but awake in order never to return to that terrible nightmare.'
Tolstoy

Just as a tender ray of light creeping from the East betokens a broader Dawn, so may a christian quest for knowing God more fully, through ideas one has suggested humbly here, to bring on the Dawn of a deeper understanding of God and the Mystery of God as Paul said "we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery."

What I suggest is that some christians that give their all in their quest for God,will find within the field of this world a pearl of great price......their annointing in Christ through unspeakable grace. I am not speaking of tithes but of one's heart and all it's treasured thoughts of man made dogma sold off, so there is room for those greater thoughts from the Mind of Christ to fill the empty space.

Let one suggest failure to do so, is the reason for the widespread advance of atheism, and other religions such as fundamentalist Islam. Let me suggest, this quest for the pearl of great price, is the same quest our Beloved went on, in the field of this world.Let me suggest that pin in your interesting account should be Christ and not fundamentalist teachings....let the void left from the disposal of fundamentalist teachings be filled only with the Mind of Christ, that commands only one thing: "leading every thought captive to Christ"..... every thought we ever had in our carnal natural religious mind! Is this not as hard as the request the Master made to the young religious rich man? I know how hard it is, but you know we are giving up really nothing, to become "the fullnes of Him who fills all things.

I have never heard an intelligent atheist lose an argument with the fundamentalist christian mindset.You can even turn to Peebsnet to find that out.Not that I can access it any more, I am sure the atheists there are glad to see awake gone.

Like Rebecca we have to leave our kin and country, for Christ. This is not about some church attendance, or even sermonising, it is a quest to sell up all you have thought valuable in this world, all those doctrines you once held as valuable as the inspired author of the Book of Hebrews said:

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go onto perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and laying on of hands, of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgement"
Heb.6:1-2

[Keith Sherwood]

You use 'fundimentalist' without meaning - in the same way as 'gay' is used today - but neither expresses the real usage

A person who believes with all his heart in Christ as the Son of God, who became man, without sin, and died bearing our sins (but He still without sin) and entered into death on our behalh (but He still without sin) and rose from the dead (but He still without sin) and entered into heaven for us buy his own blood (but He still without sin) and won salvation for all who will trust Him with their whole life. And believe the bible is the unbroken word of God for us and lives for Him

Is a fundimentalist in the true sense of the word.

Keith

[Stephen Rodgers]

I consider fundamentalism to be the real teaching of Rome, what you have stated above would brook no argument with Rome or the Pope.I have yet to see someobne only quote Scripture as the basis of fundamentalism.
I will leave you all here to judge as to the outcome of all this, that is not my role but rather to bring some FUN back into this DA MENTALISM.

There are times when even a fundamentalist feels down and think gosh it is all words empty of any reality....like the limitless slosh of Pacific lapping at our shore. Everything seems so vast yet remote, remote and like an invisible mysterious gas that at times becomes a laughing gas that triggers recognition in our cerebral crusty passages.

The trouble is we sit on the shore, ensconced on something comfortable and very secure and only put our toes in, unlike Darwin we never venture out on our own "Beagle." Yet some of us go out if it is a shallow lagoon, unless of courseit is rimmed with mangrove thickets....how wary we are of others beliefs and how hemmed in we are by them, they seem impenetrable.

Yet how easy it is to join in with all the bird life on these shores and warble the same melody knowing you will get a cooing warble in return, and a flash of their underbelly so soft and downy, if you are entranced by the dance of their words................how entrained we all become.

Some of us are like finches who wield chunky parrot beaks modified by nature for breaking seeds. Others have long slender warbler beaks, good for wriggling words through, others short beaks for nabbing nasty new age insects that dare fly past their site. How boring their names :'the large ground finch' 'the medium ground finch' 'the small ground finch' 'the large insectivorous finch' 'the cactus ground finch' and the 'vegetarian tree finch' how alluring their colours? black, grey and brown, but at least their beaks are of great colourful interest and outstanding their variety of uses.

Of course I am not suggesting that you need to drink a gin and tonic when you come across these strange but boring animals, but they will never be a snap dragon or an iguana. Though it is the 'mocking birds' that take up most of our time. Then we need to be like that silver mercury and slip out as quick as we came.

But we must venture out ot those further shores from the traditional bible, though the bible be the rock for the western man, it was never meant to be tied around his feet and then be thrown into that great sea of life out there.

[Stephen Rodgers]

I appreciate your sincere beliefs Keith.I trust you are not hurt by my reference to Rome, as I was unable to edit them out. I should have said I suggest your beliefs are similiar to that of Rome, of course I know hundreds of millions of protestants believe the same.

I suggest that only those who were born under the Old Covenant as a Jew or a Jewish proselyte needs a blood sacrifice, which refers to the nation of the Jews and their covenant with God. One suggests the New Covenant was to end the sacrificial abuse of animals, and bring to a head Israel's lust for blood as so over whelmingly seen at the Cross...."Let His blood be upon us and our Children."

Yet God's Love was so over whelming for Israel, God turned the whole thing around and instead of cursing them forgave their sins.

Scripture one suggests correctly translated and understood would enable one to discover this whole blood covenant and forgiveness through the shedding of blood........... had nothing to do with the nations who were not under Law or a Blood covenant.

If any here are a Jew of course it applies according to their belief.Though Paul's Gospel[No doubt in all his epistles I suggest he was also addressing Jews and Jewish proselytes who probaly made up the greater part of his audience, hence his references to forgiveness of sin through the blood of Christ, possibly many pagans also believed in blood sacrifice for sin] now Paul's Gospel[Rom.16:25] can take a Jew beyond circumcision and blood covenants into a New Creation in Christ where nothing remains of the Old creation man, for all is perfect!

No need for forgiveness I would suggest..... that is the glorious and reasonable truth of Justification, there is "no condemnation for those in Christ".To stand before God's Judgement seat, would be instant exoneration.... indeed no such mistake would be made. For God would only see His beloved Son. NO wonder Rome has done her utmost to destroy Paul's Gospel, and handed out a Jewish Blood Sacrifice Dispensation to the Nations, and the Nations have seen nothing but blood conflicts ever since.The instigator of all this was Constantine who murdered his own son and wife.

Since the rise of fundamentalist christianity of recent times, I suggest there has been more blood shed in the last 200 years than all that shed through out the ages, and now they have the Nuclear bomb, chemical warfare, poisons like chlorine and fluoride placed in God's living water and man made diseases that have escaped laboratories accidentally or deliberately, our foods are treated with chemical additives and drugs handed out not properly researched and what does the Church say? Nothing they love their billion dollar handouts I would suggest, and do not rock the boat.

Hundreds of millions of abortions in Christian lands funded by tax payers. And what does the established Church do, also funded by the taxpayer? Nothing.Oh, the Catholic Church may pay lip service about abortion, but with all their paedophiles what moral authority do they have? They are destroying children, making them child sacrifices on the degraded altars of their lust and perversions.

Perhaps they are against abortion because they will not get their hands on these children. Have we quickly forgotten that in the middle ages they had lime pits under their Nunneries to remove the offspring from the priests and nuns... the ones they did not use as slaves in their kitchens and laundries. Perhaps some here hear me. All these established Churches I suggest are complicit in her sins as St. John foretold in the Book of Revelations.

Even then the Prophet Jeremiah spoke of the "lying pen of the scribes" and spoke of the hardness of their hearts: "For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices"Jer.7:22. Yes Jeremiah also spoke out against the sacrifice of innocent blood, and other prophets of How God abhorred an innocent man being punished for the sins of another.

No wonder Jeremiah walked through Israel with a yoke over his shoulders making a Cross shape.Yes our Lord said 'God never wanted sacrifices but a broken heart', but He knew these evil keepers of his Father's vineyard wanted his blood, they wanted not just the blood of an animal, or even a man but the blood of God.

But God is infinite in His Love and forgiveness, nothing demonstrates His Love and Forgiveness more than the Cross.He could have shaken the whole Earth, destroyed the nation of Israel, but he did not, for God heard the cry from Cross: "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

Such Grace makes your head spin.

But look at Rome and her many inquisitions the blood of martyrs that flowed from her high altars, let me humbly and sadly suggest that Rome and her rotestant daughters have perverted the whole Gospel[read Galatians], into utter paganism, making God the blood thirsty monster and not themselves.
And we wonder why so many brethren leaving brethrenism become atheists?

[Keith Sherwood]

I would suggest that Acts 10 and 11 are recorded in detail to prove to Nero that there was and is no difference in the gospel and that the gospel Paul preached was identical to the one Peter preached

As Paul was defending all Christianity it was vital that Nero understood all the apostles were united in the same gospel and that Paul and Peter were in complete agreement - not only in the nature of the gospel preached but of moral instruction to the church

Keith

[Stephen Rodgers]

The fact remains that the Nations were not under Law, nor did they have an old blood covenant, hence no need for a new covenant. Nor were any of the Nations present at the Last Supper when the Master introduced this New covenant in His blood, only the 12 apostles representing the 12 tribes of Israel.When Peter first preached in the Book of Acts those of the Nations that were converted were already Jewish proselytes and under a blood covenant, otherwise why were they in Jerusalem for a religious festival?

Apostles James, John and Peter refused to even eat with the Nations, showing what a rift there was between Paul's Gospel to the nations and that of Peter, James and John to the circumcision[those of the blood covenant].
Some will have noted their epistles were addressed to the tribes of Israel, the Hebrews.It is amazing how many christians ignore who the epistles were addressed to, showing how generations of Roman teachings have so mesmerised their thinking and culture over multiple generations.It is clear Paul never wrore the Book of Hebrews, even from internal evidence it was probably Apollos a Hebrew scholar; for Paul's Gospel was to the Nations[albeit to the Jew first; but that Jew had to come out from being under the Law],Paul having being separated by the Holy Spirit Acts 13:2.

Why is it the Holy Spirit directs the Book of Acts but Today it is University educated theologians, under a Board of Directors or Elders?
That is I suggest what destroyed the Brethren movement as it so rapidly grew in it's pristine days, it was destined for greater truths, but Roman dogma took control.Men like Darby started withdrawing from fellow saints over doctrine and not moral walk and conduct.

Can Brethren again as a movement turn back to the Holy Spirit as their DIRECTOR? Let us one suggest cry Marantha over their sad spiritual state.

Paul foresaw already the Gospel was to become a Galatian admixture, realising tyrants like Rome had an excuse to slay heretics or any who opposed their rule,if God couldbe painted to also have His Son slain aa a sacrifice into the religious picture, for of course then slaying heretics would be for their good and God sanctioned!

it was Paul's Gospel that caused so much trouble with those controlling influences amongst the circumcision, that had him hounded by those of the circumcision Gospel, first making a vow to murder him[shed his blood] and on failing that due to his Roman citizenship, conspired to have him placed in chains and out of the way.

Blood shedding is the ultimate rule of man's law and not God's Law[God's Law gives only Life], and God foreknew from the beginning that man's absolute lust for power would slay His lamb [as indeed Cain slew Abel, and Abel slew the lamb from the beginning]...the blood of an innocent even His own Beloved Son.Let us not forget it was man that murdered God's Son, there was no priest or sacrificial altar. It was cruel it was barbaric.

Such is the vile nature of those who seek to control others in religion or politics, seeking to control their beliefs and way of life for their own personal gain...in Exclusives to cut off recalcitrants from their family,friends, jobs,wife, children and inheritance as they have not the power to shed their blood.

Let me suggest the Gospel preached by Rome and her State[Democracy: Rome's Satanic Device] sanctioned and funded Protestant daughters gives incredible power over men's souls, and these "Lords of darkness" who proclaim it............. a stream of trillions $$$$$$$$$$ into their coffers,every dollar blood dogma bought.Thus one rest's his case.

Maranatha

[Keith Sherwood]

If you can not see that Acts 10 & 11 not only widened the boundaries of the gospel but united the apostles into one gospel for Jew and Gentile and that a the council at Jerusalem James was firmly of the same opinion - then you refuse what the scripture says on the matter - in favour of a theory which is not substantiated

on the reasons for the demise of the brethren due to authoritive men wanting to be in charge and fulltime ministering brethren usualy supporting such an odius conduct and positions where that occurs - I concur

And it must be clear, to most that today, there are few places where the ethos of freedom for the Spirit to speak through the right exercise is actualy robustly maintained

But why then turn that into a rant.

Can you not gorce yourself to be brief and to the point

Keith

[Stephen Rodgers]

Yes one can certainly rant, but I have not even touched on the Book of Acts. You will get many long posts if I go there. To be brief I suggest you also read Galatians 1 &2 that was written by the Apostle Paul well after the events of Acts 10 & 11, and you will find another story and a much more explicit one.

What I have raised is why Christ has been the rejected Messiah, for over almost 2000 years since Paul penned his final epistle to Timothy stating: "that all those in Asia have turned away from me."

And that is the state of Christendom still Today. They are still preaching another gospel an admixture of the "Gospel to the circumcision" and that of the "Gospel of the uncircumcision" Galatians 2:7

I know it sounds unbeleivable, and so I would have thought Mr. Taylors adultery also unbelievable once, until I saw the evidence...... but 20,000 Plymouth Brethren who had access to the same evidence failed to do so. Truth is not about numbers.It would be a rare christian that would follow what I have said here.
"Many are called but few are chosen."

Truth like a pearl of great price can only be secured at great cost to one's own self, one's own pride, one's own religious standing.It once cost me my family.But like with Job God restored my family out fo His own mercy. There is no earthly glory in it but much suffering as indeed a pearl indicates of it's very own nature.

[Stephen Rodgers]

Here are some Scriptures suggesting we are not saved through our faith, for our faith and belief is worthless. So not having enough faith to be an atheist would be correct for you have not enough faith to be saved. Man shackled in chains has no power, to break his chains of enslavement anymore than a prisoner. Let one suggest that the state of man after the flesh is utterly hopeless. All Salvation is done from the Divine side.

Is Personal Faith Required for Salvation?



John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.



Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.



Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.



What if the Savior saves men in another way that you do not mention? Can he do it this way if he wants to?



John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.



John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,



John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.



1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.



Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.



Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:



1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.



Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:





Since Jesus is the Savior of the World and of all men, CAN HE SAVE MEN BY GRACE AND GRACE ALONE ... or does he have to do it by requiring one’s personal faith first?



Is "faith" a gift to those who do not have it and save them as if that had it?



Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one



the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.



19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


Looking at the Old Testament

Ezekiel 20:32 And that which cometh into your mind shall not be at all, that ye say, We will be as the heathen, as the families of the countries, to serve wood and stone. 33 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: 34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. 36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. 37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:



Ezekiel 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

[magog99]

I watched a programme from the Open University one afternoon. In it a physiscist from Birmingham University was lecturing his students on the SONAR system of the Bat. he took a Bat and placed a piece of plaster over it's eyes then placed it in a cage, the bars of which were barely wide enough for its wing span. it flew around the cage, then unerringly straight through the bars. Clearly it was not using it's eyes to get around. He next placed the plaster over the Bat's tiny snout, and once again placed it in the cage. This time the Bat was completely disorientated. He then told the students that the Bat was emitting high frequency sqeaks, inaudible to the human ear, and they were hitting any object in front of it, then bouncing back and in a split second telling the Bat the precise nature,direction and distance of the object, and in a flash it was able to take evasive action

He next showed the students a film of bats in the tropics. There was a swarm of myriads of different types of insects. The Bats only fed on certain types, yet they were diving in and out of the swarm, and in a split second identifying only those insects on which they fed. Now this physicist was not argueing the case for God, but he told the students that the Sonar system of the Bat was tenthousand million times more efficient than anything known to man.

Near my home in the U.K there is on the coast, a RADAR station, it occupies acres of ground, and is the product of scientific research on the part of the best brains in the world, backed up by millions of pounds. Yet we are asked to believe that the SONAR system of the Bat, which incidently is contained in it's tiny skull, less than one inch in diameter, and which according to our physicist is TENTHOUSAND MILLION TIMES more efficient than anything know to man, is the product of a BIG BANG, or a mindless process of evolution !! It has no creative intelligence behind it's existence.

No wonder the Psalmist said, "THE FOOL HATH SAID IN HIS HEART >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THERE IS NO GOD !!

Now if you then ask me where did God come from, and I said "Bill Bloggs made him". The next question is where did Bill Bloggs come from.......... and so on and so on, and thus we have INFINITY. Can you grasp INFINITY ? No, neither can the scientist. SO the scientist and all of us have to begin with an assumption, or as a Christian, I prefer AN ACT OF FAITH

Now if you have any doubts, why not put God to the test. Put your trust in His Son, Jesus, and daily you will have all the proof you need as to Hod's existence. TASTE & SEE...................that the LORD IS GOOD

[jpurssey]

I doubt that an atheist would find your argument convincing.
A few random thoughts.

Sonar isn't Radar.
Bats have had millions of years of evolution to develop their sonar, compared to less than a hundred rears for radar (or marine sonar).

There is nothing in nature to compare to MRI, Cat scans, X-ray imaging that have all resulted from the application of scientific method. Scientific method has demonstrated its value. All of us using the internet here are benefiting from it.
These things are new so don't say that there is nothing new under the sun. see also astronomical knowledge, AIDS, medical techniques.

Bacteria evolve to become resistant to anti-biotics resulting in these dangerous multiple resistant strains.

On a different tack.
Having faith is good, but Christian apologetics is not about believing through faith, but about providing arguments to support views, so here is not the place to exhort people to have faith.

I expect Christians to have doubts. Someone said that the opposite of faith is not doubt, the opposite is certainty. I think that is true.
Your arguments may helpful for you, but you need to have empathy with another person's position to understand why they are of no use to her. You need to be able to anticipate how others may respond to your points. Calling them fools will do no good at all. Show a little human understanding!!

This may be the time for you to review the Errors in Thinking and argument post.

[Keith Sherwood]

Proof of change, mutation etc. does not prove the theory of evolution.

The number of living specis is in a real sense on the decline and certain specis such as the bombardier beetle, deny the possibility of evolution as the start of the pecis http://www.bible-exposition.com/Wonders ... _94.htmity of evolution

Certain physical features are too complex for evolution e.g the knee joint

Radar copies the principles of bat sonar systems using pulsed radio signals and records and processes the bounce in exactly the same way. In fact it even copies the chirrped type signal - that bat sonar evolved' is theory, in the same way that tiger moths evolved bat sonar detection and counter methods is also theory, rather than fact

I believe most things like electro magnetic scanning are imitating and harnessing that which already exists in creation through technology.

Even now strong scientific theorys of creation are beginning to be proposed from unbelievers to try to explain the huge problems with evolution, as scientists by their very nature, do have to reasearch the irreconcilable, that they might choose initialy to put on one side to present a theory , but not for ever, in the end they have to deduce from the known problems with a theory as well

I think magog's post was excellent

Keith