Christian Mysticism

[Stephen Rodgers]

We all know the requirements to be a disciple of Christ as Luke put it, to hate one's own life and take up one's own Cross. That is fundamental to a Christian Mystic. Julian of Norwich was such a person who fell totally in love with God, so much so God was no longer even male or female but pure being, for she like a fish in the Ocean felt totally at one with that ocean of God's being.

Being united to the Will of God you enjoy and possess Him.

It is His purposes, hidden in the cloud of all that happens to you in the present moment, that you must rely. You will find it always surpasses your own wishes,

People who have abandoned themselves to God always lead mysterious lives and receive from Him exceptional and miraculous gifts by means of the most ordinary, natural, and chance experiences, experiences in which there appears to be nothing unusual.

Jeane-Pierre De Caussade

There is only one fly in the ointment that stops us........

The ego does not want to wake you up.
It will pretend that it wants you to wake up,
It will have you reading every spiritual book
and following every spiritual path
and visiting every spiritual teacher.
It wants to become more spiritual.

But if you do happen to stumble upon the truth,
so that there is a real possibility of your full
awakening, the ego will have you looking
elsewhere almost immediately.
It does not want you to wake up because if you
awaken, it will be no longer in control of you.
It will be no longer in charge.
If the true master appears,
the ego will have to vacate the throne.


Leonard Jacobson "A Return to the One"

[Keith Sherwood]

The use of the idea of splended ideals to justify a sperated sort of Christian is not good eneough

I understand unjust rejection by ones christian peers might put one apart - but that does not justify a feeling of superiority

As in Davids case - what Absalom and Adonijah did was reprehensible and unjust - but it was still part and parcel of God's declared result or price of sin and there fore David in a right Spirit spared Shimei's life for he said 'who knows 'if the Lord has told Him to curse me'

None of us have room for spiritual pride, if we suffer: -
we need it for our good
or deserve it
or have been chosen to bear it to glorify the Lord - no matter how unjust it is

Cast your mind back to the early church and the believing, lowly, slave who had to do his masters bidding from waking to going to sleep - He could maybe only meet one evening after sunset with believers once a week. His evangelistic effort to his master was his dedicated service, He or she lived in the apostolic doctrine - yet tothe Lord they are the same as the other and in the lord free

I accept no class of superior believers, there are only believers

Keith

[Stephen Rodgers]

Very interesting Keith that both David's sons tried to wrest the throne from him, especially as "Absalom" means 'father of peace' and "Adonijah" means 'Jehovah is my Lord.'

Very lofty titles they held just like these men of God give themselves in Exclusives, but they have only usurped the headship of Christ as Absalom and Adonijah usurped that of David. Sadly Darby the hero of my youth when he withdrew from so many brethren for the most petty reasons set the groundwork for future leaders to incarcerate the brethren spiritually just as indeed his ancestors did the same. I agree with your thoughts on superiority absolutely....especially spiritual superiority it is the greatest sin.

I trust you do not take what I say to put you down, I could well be wrong for at the end of the day only God knows. It would indeed be very petty to put anyone down, and especially when I held the same views so long myself and also from my background where people were daily put down to boost the ego of their leaders and instil fear and obedience in the fellowship.

To offend anyone here it would be better to have a millstone placed around my neck and be cast into the outer depths of the sea. So please do not take what I am saying to be gospel truth, you have to find your own truth. I am only explaining my position. How can one be certain of what one is told until one finds out actually for himself? Like the Bereans did. To follow others is not to know, yet to think in time one may know. Following seeks certainty without the substance and hence harvests separation on the threshing floor of truth.

Following as we know from Exclusives....... is maintaining separation, in the name of oneness, and bondage only confirms bondage in freedom's name.....and how could this lead to oneness. Only oneself is the gateway to truth, as also the consciousness of the falsehood of a separate self is also the gateway to truth."No longer live I, but Christ."

But Keith if you go back to the early believers, have you noticed two class of believers? The circumcision believers and the uncircumcision believers. You will also note a sense of superiority between the two how one dictated to the other, that they could still not eat anything that contained blood, and even further in Galatians we have Paul speaking of these issues as two Gospels[Gal.1:7-8] and in Gal.2:11-12 how the circumcision believers felt so superior they would not even eat with the uncircumcision Christians just like the Exclusive Brethren.

Of course another parallel is the Catholics and Protestants two separate class of believers even today...if one forgets about the other 30,000 sects of Christendom.
I may add Paul at the end of his ministry, in his final epistle to Timothy said "all those in Asia have turned away from me" that is where he ministered those glorious doxologies on the mysteries of God to the Ephesians, Colossians and the Philippians.
Many are called but few are chosen.

[Keith Sherwood]

Though crcumciscion and Jew/Gentile is a well recorded problem of the early church - its recording was only to show that the doctrine and the proper conduct for the whole church was against any seperation of that or any other nature between believers

The Cornelias event was quite different from the conversion and accetance of the Ethiopian and the Samaratians for they were circumcised and presented no problem, The acceptance of Cornelias was a watershed

Though the instruction from Jerusa;lem to the gentile church recorded in Acts only asked them to follow the conduct of gate prosylites just do a search on the web. However the main and real thrust and content of the letter was to remember the poor Gal 2 v 10 But Acts as the main document supporting Paul's defence before Nrero concentrates on the beliefers efforts to keep the peace with all groups within the empire

What worries me is the sniff of a suggestion that only Christian Mystics are real believers and all others are not, and that I am not so sure you realise exactly how scripture works

Keith

Keith

[Stephen Rodgers]

Keith it would be preposterous to suggest Christian Mystics are the only true believers, indeed to suggest they believe in anything, which means to hold something as an opinion only without the proof. Christian mystics if they be truly such, only approach the Divine through experimental means, they actually bask in the very presence of the Divine and are blessed, just in the same way you bask in the sun and get a tan. Hence their experience is based on faith and not belief, "Faith is the substance of things not seen." They therefore have the substance and not the shadow...of course the name mystic is irrelevant it is applicable to anyone who experiences the Divine directly.

The same question of real experience is being asked today by many priests and pastors. They are true to their beliefs, and are tireless in their work, lead holy lives and pray for their flock, yet real contact with the Divine is not there. So in that sense they are living a lie.......and suffer much within their hearts because of this feeling for the protocols of their religion has no answers for them. They are then ashamed of seeming to be something they are not, and are racked by internal torment and anguish.

I know such a one well, who was a leading Uniting Church minister in Canada, who one day said he had enough because of the above reasons and resigned from his ministry and went into a new occupation as a park ranger in a far flung province near the Alaskan border, it was in the aloneness of this new occupation that this very high powered ex minister had an epiphany, what he never could break through to in his ministry.

Like with Paul the boundaries of heaven crashed in on him, he was like Paul thrown from his horse, and for a precious moment of eternity..... experienced union with God, all boundaries between heaven and earth dissolved he then walked by faith and not by belief. Now the very epiphany he had cannot be communicated by natural means, it was an unearthly experience, not something to be described as good or beautiful, for it is a massive overpowering of life itself, a fullness, a light above the sun, a supreme love all these things combined and yet more, far more......a presence that suddenly makes you a new person, totally free, entirely yourself and in yourself yet connected to all things. To be able to forget all things and yet know all things, to feel strong infinitely happy, to be for a moment in eternity totally one self and much much more.

To be struck by this out of no where, totally unexpected, to be knocked over, totally drained, pulverised, plundered, yet mysteriously filled with a presence, an elixir from a cup that was constantly running over into eternity. Was he Confused? No not for a moment, seeing clearer than ever before like the scales falling from one's eyes. To be able to see into things, through things, to see their very essence in God, totally transformed, to see all things totally themselves yet so much more, completely different yet exactly what they should be and what they are despite that difference.

A feeling of no longer belonging to one self, oh if only someone could explain this to me......but what would be the point, to tell me I'm right, to tell me to keep with it and move on to even more, when I am the way the truth and the life? Why? Because one's whole life is permeated by another the Christ.
"We are the fulness of Him, who fills all things."

[Keith Sherwood]

As scripture is a more sure word of prophecy

From where does this idea that reading and meditating on scripture is not communicating with God and God speaking to us

What you now say is very much the same as the second blessing of Penticostalism, that you (for only those who think they are in the good of this would make statements that you do) are living on a higher plain

You are critical of those you do not know and how can you know that the hard working believer in scripture, preaching, teaching and caring for others is not has not a close relationship with his Lord - I thought kindnesses to others were considered by the Lord as to him.

And where in scripture do you get these two classes of believers, did Paul have any other basis of receiving the man back into fellowship as stated in 2 Cor - other than that he might not be swallowed by too much sorrow - did he set specific conditions?

Or does the pastoral worker seeking to help those that sin - not tremble lest he falls also

Where is this pride that you seem to have come from The bible, the Lord, or from yourself

Keith

[Stephen Rodgers]

As scripture is a more sure word of prophecy

We are in agreement here

From where does this idea that reading and meditating on Scripture is not communicating with God and God speaking to us

I have no idea of such an idea, but how many truly read Scripture and even know how to meditate and how does one accurately know God speaks to one and not imagine such?

What you now say is very much the same as the second blessing of Penticostalism, that you (for only those who think they are in the good of this would make statements that you do) are living on a higher plain.
One moment Keith you seem to be saying you are in communication with God and God speaks to you, would that not make you living on a higher plain? Just a thought to meditate on in all humility.

You are critical of those you do not know and how can you know that the hard working believer in scripture, preaching, teaching and caring for others is not has not a close relationship with his Lord - I thought kindnesses to others were considered by the Lord as to him.
I would have though the case sample of a clergyman that I know that suffered much from guilt of not experiencing God was not a case of criticism of this man but rather praise for his moral courage and spiritual conviction. That is why I used a case sample from my own experience and not just speculation no doubt many including those Priest in Exclusives had "their conscience seared". conviction.

And where in scripture do you get these two classes of believers, did Paul have any other basis of receiving the man back into fellowship as stated in 2 Cor - other than that he might not be swallowed by too much sorrow - did he set specific conditions?
Not for that group of believers Keith I assume you are referring to those believers that had caused grief in 2 Cor 2:5-7 and those of 1 Cor.5:5 were delivered up to Satan a far more harsh sentence as there is implication of no admittance again and certainly no sympathy. Of course these Christians in 1 Corinthians were referred to as "babes in the truth" and we also know there are the spiritually mature, would that not be two classes of believers?

I could go into a Scriptural exegesis of what Paul means by "Who makes both, uncircumcision and circumcision one.....creating in His body one new humanity.....reconciling BOTH in One body through the Cross." Eph.2:14-16. I could march through Scripture from Gen.12 when God calls out Abram from his country, and his kindred....into a Land I will show thee".... right unto Malachi how the patriarchal promises of Israel being God's chosen people on earth and that the Kingdom of God on earth belongs to the 12 tribes of Israel.

And if you proceed into the four Gospels you find the same Kingdom of God promises to the Patriarchs and the Prophets are finally offered in Christ remember Christ's own words "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel" Math.15:24 The Messiah over and over offers the Kingdom of God to Israel but is finally rejected in His ride into Jerusalem on an ass, even worse the Father that sent Him into his vineyard is finally killed by them.

You then have the Kingdom of God as an act of a new dispensation of Grace being offered 20 times by the 12 Apostles under the guidance of the Holy Spirit in the Book of Acts to the Jews or Jewish Gentile-proselytes and every time rejected. So the same people, the same land, the same glory, same covenants, same legislation, same divine service, same promises and the same hope fill the Bible from Gen.12 to the Book of Revelations........if you discount Paul's Epistles [ I am not including the Book of Hebrews in Paul's authorship.]

Paul had a unique commission, a unique Gospel which Paul refers to as "My Gospel" Rom.2:16 and his special role as foremost of the apostles and also having received from God his own unique dispensation, and not received from any of the other Apostles see Col.1:25&26 and Gal. 1:15-18. This is such a lengthy dissertation that Rome and her Protestant daughters [daughters of the Great Harlot Rome] have covered up over the millennia, that due to time restraints I can only briefly allude to it.

Or does the pastoral worker seeking to help those that sin - not tremble lest he falls also

One would think so but amongst brethren I doubt it. There but by the grace of God I go, was not really in their vocabulary in their latter years, especially towards those withdrawn from!.
Where is this pride that you seem to have come from The bible, the Lord, or from yourself

Can you show me a man without pride? There is no greater challenge I face but not to man but to God. Who can cast the first stone?

[Stephen Rodgers]

Pardon Keith my dissection of your post I normally avoid doing that like the plague. But your post has brought into view some glorious truths that so few Exclusive Brethren have seen and those that did were promptly withdrawn from. The pinnacle of Exclusive Brethren was seen during the J. G.Bellet and J.B.Stoney years, that is of spiritual truth and the mystery of the Heavenly Standing of the ecclesia. That meat scavenging blood thirsty Raven and drunken Taylor soon dragged this glorious heavenly secret into the mire of their carnal earthly understanding.

There are two classes of believers in the New Testament, it is very clear...

1. The Circumcision Christians led by Peter James and John. They had what Paul called the Gospel of the Circumcision. Exclusives who once had the truth soon fell into teh same ancient division, and like the circumcision would no longer eat with others see Galatians 2:11-12 " But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him face to face, because he was to be blamed,
For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them that were of the circumcision."

2. The Uncircumcision Christians led by Paul who had the Gospel of the Uncircumcision.....this was the Mystery concealed from the Patriarchs and Prophets of the Old Testament.

Perhaps Keith you could tell me what this secret is that Paul refers to.............

Ephesians 3
1For this cause, I Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you the nations,

2if, indeed, ye did hear of the dispensation of the grace of God that was given to me in regard to you,

3that by revelation He made known to me the secret, according as I wrote before in few [words] --

4in regard to which ye are able, reading [it], to understand my knowledge in the secret of the Christ,

5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit --

6that the nations be fellow-heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in the Christ, through the good news,

7of which I became a ministrant, according to the gift of the grace of God that was given to me, according to the working of His power;

8to me -- the less than the least of all the saints -- was given this grace, among the nations to proclaim good news -- the untraceable riches of the Christ,

9and to cause all to see what [is] the fellowship of the secret that hath been hid from the ages in God, who the all things did create by Jesus Christ,

10that there might be made known now to the principalities and the authorities in the heavenly [places], through the assembly, the manifold wisdom of God,

11according to a purpose of the ages, which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord,

I probaly have already exceeded my quota here.

[Elizabeth]

Dear Bro. Stephen,

We do not have a "quota" here. Perhaps you are seeing things through the prism of your experiences with the Exclusive Brethren. Many people on this site have never heard of the Exclusive Brethren, so perhaps your posts are a little bit puzzling for them. I don't know what experience you have with the Open Brethren as they are totally different from the Exclusives a.k.a. Hales/Symington/Taylorites.

Just for clarification,

Elizabeth
Site Admin.

[Stephen Rodgers]

Thanks Elizabeth for the clarification, but one always assummed Plymouth Brethren were Exclusive Brethren. Though I wonder if the influence of that popular Vicar of Plymouth R.S. Hawker that made a strong impression on Darby did not influence the name.

WE judge others to make ourselves special. It is not that we want to be separate from them but the intent is to be special. People have so many mental and physical traumas in their life they cry out for unconditional love, strangely they do this by attacking another, when really all attack is against oneself.
It is all a cry for help, for unconditional love.

To be stronger than another is to make another weaker, by judging we can feel so much stronger than those we condemn. In every judgement we have the voice of exclusiveness, I was brought up in Exclusive Brethren, whose leaders rose up the ranks over the dead bodies [so to speak] of others, those they shut up or excommunicated. They all ways acted like pack animals with one imagined spiritual one standing back giving secret orders to his henchmen. They always act in packs albeit 2 or 3 even.

But because we ARE NOT SEPARATE this judging to maintain one's self importance does not work. The judgements we pile onto others also apply to us, for we are all interconnected. Judging others is only then Self judgement. All judgement or defence is only a means of ego self preservation. So in judging another you are putting chains around yourself, the other is always your mirror, a reflection of how you treat them.

Such attacks are not real if you hold no grievance, you can only make it real by reacting. Yet if I react to you as if you were a judgemental person, then I am refusing to join with you and hence deny my own wholeness and falling into judment of another which inevitably can only be oneself. So it is not Exclusives one judges, but the illusion we all have here that Exclusives may be such, it is only their words and actions that are judging and that in this world of man's illusory 5 senses. And words can they produce the writer? Can one stroke of my keyboard give me the other person?

No words are nothing more than a stuffed nightingdale, in illo tempore ...without even a song.
"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Is the liberated cry from the lips of a transformed man.

My body may be on earth but my Head is in heaven. As such I can be headless in this world, the body a mere carriage bearing the heavenly gifts of the Father...."who art in heaven." You see as you go about even your normal business, you never see your head except reflected in a mirror.

I post these things so people may think on spiritual things..... "to cause all to see what [is] the fellowship of the secret that hath been hid from the ages in God, who the all things did create by Jesus Christ," this is not found in earthly fellowship but in direct fellowship with God. This is not knowledge through the 5 senses of Science or the liturgy of religion.
Only the "spirit of man" can know these things.

I trust this gives some idea of a Christian Mystic, that they have been on the very ropes of this Life's ring, they are not ignorant of scripture or theology, they are not young men but rather like a fine wine that has experienced much reduction over the years, and yes, like Saul who then became Paul.Yes like Paul they experience much rejection, but thankfully not beaten up yet.

I trust these posts are helpful to some, what they mine from them is up to them, they can discard what they do not want. As the Internet is full of so much sex, pornography and cheating on partners, I trust the posts may give some light in this darkness. Even a burning heretic throws out light.
My namesake was only stoned.

[Rob]

My wife was educated at ‘All Hallows Convent’ in Suffolk just 20 miles from Norwich and their sister convent. The sisters run a ‘Julian Centre’ and are inspired by Julian’s life. Links from their website and other sources provided the following information on Julian of Norwich. Notice the emphasise visions, revelations, meditation, suffering and spiritual experience which are part of the Christian Mystics tool kit. Stephen seems to consider these extremely important as do both my wife and I.

Julian of Norwich (c. November 8, 1342 – c. 1416) – her life and work

Julian of Norwich is thought of as one of the greatest English Christian mystics. On 8th May 1373, when she was thirty years old, Julian suffered a severe illness from which she almost died. During that illness she received a series of visions of the Passion of Christ and the love of God. She subsequently became an anchoress (a hermit) at St Julian’s Church in Norwich, where she lived in a cell attached to the church and spent the remainder of her life in prayer and meditation and offering comfort and advice to those who came to her window.
Over the course of some twenty years, Julian reflected on the meaning of her visions and wrote down an account of this. She was the first woman to write a book in English. It is only in the last century, and in particular in the last few decades, that The Revelations of Divine Love has been published and distributed widely throughout the world. Julian’s wisdom teaching is today regarded as a classic in the canon of Western spirituality, and it is an important spiritual resource for our times.
Julian’s insights into the nature of God and the human condition were ahead of her time. Contrary to the punitive ideas that were the common currency of medieval church teaching with its emphasis on sin, punishment and purgatory, Julian perceived that there is no anger in God. It is in God’s nature, says Julian, to 'put away all our blame', and to 'regard us with pity and compassion as innocent and guiltless children.' Likewise, in contrast to the patriarchal language and concepts of the established church, she saw God not only as an all-powerful and mighty Father, but also as a tender loving Mother.
Sin, Julian perceived, ‘has no substance’ in our being. This is not to say that she did not recognise the damage and darkness that men and women fall into, but that, while sin and suffering is somehow necessary for our human journey, it does not have the final word. Our pain can be turned to profit by becoming a valuable source of self-knowledge and humility. Moreover, through seeking God’s mercy, our wounds are no longer seen as wounds but as honours. Despite the very real existence of pain and sin, in ourselves and in our world, says Julian, ‘all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well.’ It is through her unshakeable confidence in the transformative power of God’s unconditional love that this extraordinary claim emerges; an assurance that resonates in our own troubled times with a profound ring of hope.
Julian ends her book with a prayer that her work may fall only into the hands of those who wish to love God. Given the religious climate of the time, where anyone who displayed independent thinking was in potential danger of being burnt at the stake for heresy, Julian’s work was undertaken with considerable risk. This accounts, at least in part, for the obscurity which enveloped her writing for so long. It also helps explain her sense of caution about the readership of The Revelations and makes her accomplishment all the more remarkable. From the time of her visions in 1373 until she finished her book some twenty years later, Julian puzzled over the question, ‘what was our Lord’s meaning?’ At the end of this long journey, she receives the answer:
‘What, do you wish to know your Lord’s meaning in this thing? Know it well, love was his meaning. Who reveals it to you? Love. What did he reveal to you? Love. Why does he reveal it to you? For love. [...] So I was taught that love is our Lord’s meaning. And I saw very certainly in this and in everything that before God made us he loved us, which love was never abated and never will be.’
The reason this meaning was revealed to her, says Julian, is ‘because God wants to have it better known to us than it is’. Julian informs us that her work began as ‘God’s gift and grace’ but that, at the time of writing, ‘it is not yet performed’. More than six centuries later, it is now the task of those who have experienced the grace, beauty and power of her words to ensure that her book and the passionate love of God that it depicts is ‘performed’ fully and widely. Love, as St Paul says, is indeed patient.

NOTE: Paul also writes to Timothy that the whole goal of his teaching is LOVE. More later ...

[Stephen Rodgers]

Rob I do not know your background but Brethren have always along with other fundamentalists been very patriarchal towards God. This long romance of Julian of Norwich with God, saw God's omniscience immersed in every aspect of human existence, including that crucial one of gender. In this respect Julian of Norwich [c1342-1420] saw right through this negativity in the following: "And thus I saw that God rejoiceth that he is our Father, and God rejoiceth He is our Mother, and God rejoiceth that He is our very spouse and our soul is his loved wife." Julian Norwich.

God's Love is diffusive, self-emptying even of gender and sacrificial, it is unconditional love and embraces all aspects of love, leaving no role out. A Christian who has self surrendered can see the truth of the great first commandment: "Hear, O Israel: the Lord Thy God is One Lord." You cannot truly love another, a spouse until you become one with them. As long as you see two partners, you have distance. Distance from God is sin/error for God is omnipresent in all.To truly love God with all your heart, soul and might, you must be as Paul said "a partaker of the Divine Nature."

Then this commandment could be read as this: 'Hear O Israel, man made of the very substance of God's nature. God and you are One and Undivided. You are God conditioned as man. All that God is you are, but you will never know this to be true until you stop claiming it to belong to another, except one's true Self. The little self is the "old man" the "outer man" or the "ego" in plain terms. "Ye are Gods" is the statement of the Christ.

We are God having a human experience in all the diversity that life IS, and so when we die to this temporary life we can return back to Him our True Source and Ground of Being: Life. "The Spirit returns back to God who gave it." If for a moment we could realise our God given nature, sin would not be found in us. When we forget who we are we fall into error, we forget our formless nature for that formed as an image and likeness that must like all reflections pass.

Yes God is the One in whom we have our being, live, move and breath. When we forget this we sin....for we have forgoten our true being, we have entered into a state of unreality. If sin was reality it could not be forgiven...otherwise we would need another definition for reality. But the cry from the Cross was: "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Julian also saw how the sufferings of Christ was bound up with our suffering. "Here I saw a great oneing betwixt Christ and us, to mine understanding: for when he was in pain, we were in pain. All creatures that might suffer pain, suffered with him: that is to say, all creatures that God hath made to our service. The firmament, the earth, failed for sorrow in their nature in the time of Christ's dying. For it belongeth naturally to their property to know him for their God, in whom all their virtue standeth."
All quotes from: Revelations of Divine Love.

Sin, Julian perceived, ‘has no substance’ in our being. This is not to say that she did not recognise the damage and darkness that men and women fall into, but that, while sin and suffering is somehow necessary for our human journey, it does not have the final word.

When such expressions "sin..has no substance in our being so many Christians go running to their Scripture to prove elsewise. Few realise the depths of Julian's spiritual perception in your quote Rob, this is not about meeting Christ in the local Church, but on the cross roads of life itself the reconciliation of God and man at that juncture. But here are some Scriptures that confirm this statement, if any doubt that:

2 Corinthians 5:18: And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19: To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Isaiah 44:21 Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. 22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

Jeremiah 50:20 In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

Where will you find the “sins of men” when the Supreme Judge Himself cannot find them?



Enoch 10: And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind (Satan) Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening 5 in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein (bottomless pit). And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may 6, 7 not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the 8 Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted 9 through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.'

1 John 3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9: Whosoever is born of God (all human kind) doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[Elizabeth]

My wife was educated at ‘All Hallows Convent’ in Suffolk just 20 miles from Norwich and their sister convent. The sisters run a ‘Julian Centre’ and are inspired by Julian’s life. Links from their website and other sources provided the following information on Julian of Norwich. Notice the emphasise visions, revelations, meditation, suffering and spiritual experience which are part of the Christian Mystics tool kit. Stephen seems to consider these extremely important as do both my wife and I..

Dear Bro. Rob,

I agree with both you and your wife. Other Christians have been almost angry with me when I have suggested that God has spoken to humans directly without the interference of scriptural interpretations. I was brought up with people who regularly said "The Lord spoke to me" and you could see that the person was obedient to the Lord's command. If the Lord had a work for a particular person, he had a way of speaking to them without human intervention.

Thank you for your thoughts about St. Julian. I have always admired her.

Only by grace,

Elizabeth

[Keith Sherwood]

Dear Stephen,

I did not think my arguments were 'brethren' in nature.

You might argue there are babes and mature believers - but that is not two classes of believers. The New testament makes no suggestion of such any more than it would seperate between apostles and others, rich or poor, teachers or the taught, older and younger. If we were devide in such a way there would be hundreds of classes but there are none

For we are all members of one body and in fellowship with all who calld on the name of the Lord everywhere.

And I can not see that the Julian you refer to can add to scripture

The apostolic cammands to believers were in essence simple
To love the Lord
To love believers
To do good to all men
To obey rulers and masters
To work, to care for oneself and family - so as not to be a burden to any
To be honest
The spiritual life can be summed up in plain words as in Titus 3 and especialy the words of v 14

Within these matters there are minuetum of prayers, chaste conduct etc.

So I find your words rather strange and the application odd mystic ideas to scriptures which in their context have no such mystery attached to them. I see your suggestions as a kind of smoke and mirrors trick, also almost impossible to follow.

For example
Eph 3 - the mystery is simply the gospel that includes all who believe, without exception - as good teachers say over and over again - you do not find the church in the Old Testament. But now it is declared in all its glory

And he being a prisoner for the nations - was simply the reality of the fact that he was going to the highest earthly authority to establish the innocence of the church in its conduct within the empire and its legal right as followers of the faith of Abraham Issac and Jacob to peace and protection within the empire - If he had agreed to Festus judgement at Jerusalem he would have been judged quilty to appease the Jews in the same way and for the same reason that the Lord was crucified by Pilate and that legal precedent would have allowed persecution of the church to become legal

There needed a change in Roman Law for believers to be persecuted - as the law stood Paul's defence had to succeed.

However later by Neros degree in judgeing Christians quilty of the great fire at Rome, the law was changed, persecution began, Paul was beheaded and Peter crucified and most of the presbytry put to death

Your arguments seperates believers and makes some super spiritual and others not - and now seems now to border on sinless perfection

I disagree with that premise, we are all unprofitable servants - but all accepted because of the merits of Christ and because of the cross work of Calvary

Keith

[Stephen Rodgers]

Thanks for that gracious spirit of reply Keith. I have already pointed out that this subject requires much time. It is the great recurring thread in Scripture, that scholars like Darby never noticed it almost beggars all belief and their hapless failure to notice has led so many dedicated Christians to go down the wrong garden path, and it has become huge mote in their eye....that stops them seeing the most glorious mystery of the Bible.

You said Keith that "you do not find the Church in the Old Testament" you would need to clarify that. For "church" means "ecclesia" and again my namesake Stephen spoke of: "This is he who was in the church[eclessia] in the wilderness.....who received the lively oracles to give unto us." Acts7:38 Of course the mystery revealed to Paul about the Gentiles was not known back then.

I have no idea Keith how you could say the Gospel of the Circumcision and the Gospel of the uncircumcision are the same. It is clear their are two churches in Scripture, like their are two Adams, Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esau, Isaac and Ishmael David and Saul. Just on this subject I will mention a few of the many used in Scripture.

WE have two creations one out of water in Gen.1 and one out of the earth or dust of Gen.2. We have the old creation and the new creation. We have two gardens one in Genesis and one in the Book of Revelations.
WE have two trees in the Garden of Eden. We have two Kingdoms of God the Kingdom of God in heaven and the kingdom of God on earth.

It is clear that Christ was a minister sent only to the lost house of Israel, who rejected Him. Through grace the Gospel is re-offered 20 times in the Book of acts to the Jews and their gentile proselytes. It is not until Acts 13:2 that Paul and Barnabas are separated by the Holy spirit for a new ministry to the Gentiles who are not even proselytes or circumcised.

This is the most radical change in the Bible that introduces a new dispensation and new covenant along with a new Kingdom that of heaven, for the Jews were alway promised the Kingdom of God on earth. So you have two Gospels one by Paul to the Uncircumcision but this in no discounts Jews from taking up this Gospel. But it certainly was a Gospel that Peter James and John and the rest of the circumcision or Jewish Christians rejected.

Now this confrontation is the great schism of the New Testament like that in Ireland between the Protestants and the Catholics. I have not really even touched on this subject it requires so many posts to even give it justice.

Yes Keith notwithstanding I do agree with your comment: "For we are all members of one body and in fellowship with all who called on the name of the Lord everywhere." Yes there is a New Humanity in Christ where both the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers the circumcision and the uncircumcision have their "middle wall of partition [that separates them into two classes of believers] broken down."

The Unity of the Body is fundamental.

But if anyone has any questions let us clear them up, for we clearly have two groups..............
1. The Jews the circumcision who had the earthly promises and election unto them were entrusted the Oracles of God" as having jurisdiction over the Kingdom of God on earth, see also John's Book of Revelations 21:24. Please note how the Apostles to the circumcision Peter James and John start their Epistles and who they address those Epistles to....it is very illuminating! Also note how the Law is still retained with the circumcision.
How they are also saved through blood sacrifice of Christ through repentance and sacrifice.

2. Then you have the Gentiles, who have never lived under Law, "alienated from the citizenship of israel....having no expectation, and without God in the world" Eph.2:12 but through Grace being given the Kingdom of Heaven and a ministry "to make God's manifold wisdom known amongst the celestials." But this second group in no way discounts the Jews who accept Paul's Gospel.
Paul's Gospel does not require good works, or even sacrifice though in addressing the Jews he will mention that, but His Gospel is based on Justification that no sin is imputed for the Gentiles positionally IN CHRIST are spotless and perfect....even more "seated in the heavenly places in Christ" And as I said Paul's Gospel embraces Jew and Gentile who would believe Paul's Gospel unlike that of the Gospel of the Circumcision of Peter, James and John.

This truth is pivotal to Scripture and explains what the Rapture really is........it is no "beam me up Scottie" stuff...no, absolutely no but rather something far more mysterious and glorious.

So a Christian Mystic has a charter and this is the charter. I am not ashamed I know I am in good company.......

We speak the hidden mystical Wisdom of God, which God ordained before the World unto our Glory: Which none of the Princes of this World knew: For had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. But, as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor Ear heard, neither hath it entered into the Heart of Man to conceive the Things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: For the Spirit searcheth all Things, yea, the deep Things of God. For what Man knoweth the Things of a Man, save the Spirit of a Man which is in him? Even so the Things of God knoweth no Man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the Spirit of this World, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the Things that are freely given us of God. Which Things also we speak, not in the Words which Man's Wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual Things with spiritual. But the natural Man receiveth not the Things of the Spirit of God: For they are Foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth, or discerneth all Things.
1 Cor.2:7-14